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England and Wales High Court (Administrative Court) Decisions |
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You are here: BAILII >> Databases >> England and Wales High Court (Administrative Court) Decisions >> Yates-Taylor v Environment Agency & Ors [2010] EWHC 3038 (Admin) (08 June 2010) URL: http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2010/3038.html Cite as: [2011] Env LR 14, [2010] EWHC 3038 (Admin) |
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QUEEN'S BENCH DIVISION
ADMINISTRATIVE COURT
Leeds Combined Court 1 Oxford Row Leeds West Yorkshire LS1 3BG |
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B e f o r e :
(Sitting as a Judge of the High Court)
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YATES-TAYLOR |
Claimant |
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- and – |
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ENVIRONMENT AGENCY and WRG and SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE ENVIRONMENT |
Defendant 1st Interested Party 2nd Interested Party |
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WordWave International Limited
A Merrill Communications Company
165 Fleet Street, London EC4A 2DY
Tel No: 020 7404 1400 Fax No: 020 7404 1424
Official Shorthand Writers to the Court)
Mr Facenna appeared on behalf of the Defendant.
Mr Pickles (instructed by Walker Morris) appeared on behalf of the First Interested Party.
Mr Palmer appeared on behalf of the Second Interested Party.
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Crown Copyright ©
JUDGE BEHRENS:
"Whilst I admire the ingenuity of the arguments raised under the four grounds of the claim, they have been effectively answered in the acknowledgment of service by the Defendant and Interested Parties. I do not consider that there was any arguable error of law involved in this case in respect of which it would be appropriate to grant permission."
"The Stockholm Convention distinguishes between intentionally-and unintentionally-produced POPS. Intentionally-produced POPS are those used (mainly in the past) in agriculture (primarily as pesticides, e.g. HCB) and industry (e.g. PCBs). Those intentionally-produced POPS are not relevant where waste incineration is concerned but it is these that we understand Article 6(3) addresses."
"Member States shall, when considering proposals to construct new facilities or significantly to modify existing facilities using processes that release chemicals listed in Annex III, without prejudice to Council Directive 1996/61/EC(14), give priority consideration to alternative processes, techniques or practices that have similar usefulness but which avoid the formation and release of substances listed in Annex III."
Mr Facenna referred me to other provisions in the POP Regulations. He took me to Article 1, which sets out the objective. He took me to Article 3, which, subject to the exemptions in Article 4, bans the intentionally produced POPS. He acknowledged or accepted that Article 6 deals with unintentionally produced POPS, and he drew my attention to the other regulations in Articles 6(1)and 6(2) whereby under 6(1) there is a necessity for member states to have an inventory and under Article 6(2) there is a necessity for member states to have an action plan with a view "to identify, characterise and minimise with a view to eliminating where feasible as soon as possible" the total release of such POPS.
"The concept of best available techniques is not aimed at the prescription of any specific technique or technology, but at taking into account the technical characteristics of the installation concerned, its geographical location and the local environmental conditions. Appropriate control techniques to reduce releases of the chemicals listed in Part I are in general the same. In determining best available techniques, special consideration should be given, generally or in specific cases, to the following factors, bearing in mind the likely costs and benefits of a measure and consideration of precaution and prevention: [and a number of general considerations are set out]"
"When considering proposals to construct new facilities or significantly modify existing facilities using processes that release chemicals listed in this annex, priority consideration should be given to alternative processes, techniques or practices that have similar usefulness but which avoid the formation and release of such chemicals."
"In the case of a new installation or a substantial change where Article 4 of Directive 85/337/EEC applies, any relevant information obtained or conclusion arrived at pursuant to Articles 5, 6 and 7 of that Directive shall be taken into consideration for the purposes of granting the permit."
"The information to be provided by the developer in accordance with paragraph 1 shall include at least:
- a description of the project comprising information on the site, design and size of the project,
- a description of the measures envisaged in order to avoid, reduce and, if possible, remedy significant adverse effects,
- the data required to identify and assess the main effects which the project is likely to have on the environment,
- an outline of the main alternatives studied by the developer and an indication of the main reasons for his choice, taking into account the environmental effects,
- a non-technical summary of the information mentioned in the previous indents."
It is plain from documents I was shown in the reply, the application form, that the developer was asked for and did supply his environmental assessment.
"The permit shall include emission limit values for polluting substances, in particular those listed in Annex III, likely to be emitted from the installation concerned in significant quantities, having regard to their nature and their potential to transfer pollution from one medium to another (water, air and land). If necessary, the permit shall include appropriate requirements ensuring protection of the soil and ground water and measures concerning the management of waste generated by the installation. Where appropriate, limit values may be supplemented or replaced by equivalent parameters or technical measures."
"The CO2 emissions from the facility are undoubtedly significant, but CO2 differs from other pollutants emitted from the Installation, in that its effect on the environment is global rather than local. It is for this reason that CO2 is not included in Annex III to the IPPCD, which lists the main polluting substances that are to be considered when setting emission limit values (ELVs) in Permits. The Environment Agency recognises that emissions of CO2 are inevitable where waste is combusted. Once the amount and type of waste had been set, the CO2 emissions are, essentially, a given [can be calculated]. It is not therefore appropriate to set an ELV for CO2. This does not, however, mean that no further consideration needs to be given to this emission."
"Waste shall only be accepted if:
(a) it is of a type and quantity listed in Schedule 3 of Table S3.2; and
(b) it conforms to the description in the documentation supplied by the producer and holder."
"1. Member States shall ensure that the public concerned are given early and effective opportunities to participate in the procedure for:
- issuing a permit for new installations,
- issuing a permit for any substantial change in the operation of an installation,
- updating of a permit or permit conditions for an installation in accordance with Article 13, paragraph 2, first indent.
The procedure set out in Annex V shall apply for the purposes of such participation."
Annex V is at page 539 H:
"1. The public shall be informed (by public notices or other appropriate means such as electronic media where available) of the following matters early in the procedure for the taking of a decision or, at the latest, as soon as the information can reasonably be provided:"
Then it sets out a number of matters from (a) to (g) including the nature of possible decisions or where that is done the draft decision.
Under sub-paragraph 3:
"3. The public concerned shall be entitled to express comments and opinions to the competent authority before a decision is taken.
4. The results of the consultations held pursuant to this Annex must be taken into due account in the taking of a decision."
Then sub-paragraph 5 reads as follows:
"5. The detailed arrangements for informing the public (for example by bill posting within a certain radius or publication in local newspapers) and consulting the public concerned (for example by written submissions or by way of a public inquiry) shall be determined by the Member States. Reasonable time-frames for the different phases shall be provided, allowing sufficient time for informing the public and for the public concerned to prepare and participate effectively in environmental decision-making subject to the provisions of this Annex."
So one can see that the detailed arrangements are delegated to the member states but the member states have to provide reasonable time frames in accordance with Annex V.
MR FACENNA: In the light of your Lordship's judgment I am instructed to apply for the Agency's costs of defending the claim, not including today's proceedings. I can hand up a statement of costs which has been served on the other side already and they were told quite some time ago what the amount was. It is not an unreasonable amount given the complexity of the claim. There has been a certain amount of correspondence between the parties --.
JUDGE BEHRENS: These costs do not include today.
MR FACENNA: They do not include today.
JUDGE BEHRENS: I was being today yesterday that apparently you cannot get today's costs.
MR FACENNA: That is right.
JUDGE BEHRENS: I do not quite understand why but I am told the Court of Appeal said so.
MR FACENNA: The White Book says that there is no obligation on defendants to turn up to proceedings where is there is an obligation to produce an Acknowledgement of Service, so we are on that basis, apparently, defendants are entitled to the cost of submitting an acknowledgement but not of turning up --
JUDGE BEHRENS: Your attitude is exactly the same attitude as the attitude on behalf of the Secretary of State yesterday so I didn't have to look at it and consider it in any detail. You are not claiming costs of today.
MR FACENNA: I am not claiming costs.
JUDGE BEHRENS: And so I do not need to consider whether if you had so claimed them I would have allowed them.
MR FACENNA: Yes. There is one background point which I draw to your Lordship's attention. There has been a certain amount of correspondence between the parties in relation to the financial position of the claimant. It has been disclosed in the course of that that HOTI has managed to raise some £7,000 towards the costs of this claim and this was disclosed in the context of discussions leading to agreement on the protective costs order. Ultimately the agreement was that the cost protection would extend to £10,000 which your Lordship would see that we're well within that figure. And on that basis I do apply for the Agency's costs for the Acknowledgement of Service.
MR HARWOOD: My Lord, I apologise, I object to this in terms of the principle and in terms of the sum.
JUDGE BEHRENS: I am sorry?
MR HARWOOD: I object to the principle of costs and the sum.
JUDGE BEHRENS: Yes.
MR HARWOOD: I can deal with both those points by reference to the decision in the Court of Appeal in Ewing, which should be at the back of the interested party's bundle.
JUDGE BEHRENS: I don't have any other bundle. I have one bundle. There may have been two at one stage but somebody very kindly put them altogether in one.
MR HARWOOD: In that case it may well be right at the back.
JUDGE BEHRENS: There is something here which seems to be an authority I have not looked at.
MR HARWOOD: The Acknowledgment of Service put in a (inaudible) of authorities
JUDGE BEHRENS: Uniplex?
MR HARWOOD: (inaudible).
JUDGE BEHRENS: Additional authorities, claimant?
MR HARWOOD: (Inaudible) Westlaw judgment. I think the final (inaudible).
JUDGE BEHRENS: (Inaudible) German?
MR HARWOOD: A decision of the Court of Appeal which considered amongst other things the approach to costs of the acknowledgment of service in judicial review proceedings and—
JUDGE BEHRENS: I regularly get asked for them, normally in the sum of £800 or £560.
MR HARWOOD: My Lord, that is my second point. Perhaps I can make both points in the process. It is dealt with by the judge at two points. First of all on paragraph 40, which should be on page 9 of the judgment, of the judgment of Carnwath LJ.
JUDGE BEHRENS: Paragraph 40.
MR HARWOOD: Paragraph 40.
JUDGE BEHRENS: "I should add a brief comment on the function of "summaries of grounds"…, that one.
MR HARWOOD: Yes. And if I can quickly take my Lord…
JUDGE BEHRENS: Do not assume I know what Mount Cook says.
MR HARWOOD: What Mount Cook does is to say in principle that the costs of acknowledgment of service (inaudible) if permission is refused. What it does not say, my Lord, it does not really say much more about the topic than that.
JUDGE BEHRENS: So that is the starting point.
MR HARWOOD: That is the starting point.
JUDGE BEHRENS: Right. Now I move on to 41.
MR HARWOOD: Perhaps if my Lord quickly...
JUDGE BEHRENS: "While I do not of course question the principles established by that decision, they must not be applied in a way which seriously impedes the right of citizens to access to justice, particularly when seeking to protect their environment.
MR HARWOOD: 40, 43 --.
JUDGE BEHRENS: Wait a minute. (Pause) I think my copy of the judgment goes from 43 to 52.
MR HARWOOD: It is double-sided.
JUDGE BEHRENS: That is why. I am looking at 47. Did 47.1 happen in this case?
MR HARWOOD: The Environment Agency did not ask for costs with the acknowledgment of service and summary grounds. There was a request for collection by WMG. Sir Michael Harrison did not award any costs. So the first point here is the Environment Agency is asking months after it should have been to be taking advantage of a renewal to seek its costs which should have been applied for a long time ago. The principle on renewal (inaudible) earlier it is the Practice Direction Part 4 which says that the costs of a renewal hearing would normally be awarded in favour of the successful defendants.
JUDGE BEHRENS: It is probably very good for me to look at that.
MR HARWOOD: It simply unfortunately just deals with the hearing.
JUDGE BEHRENS: Can we just look at it? I had the same point yesterday.
MR HARWOOD: Practice Direction 54 I think paragraph 8.
JUDGE BEHRENS: I had the same point yesterday. Practice Direction, not 54A.
MR HARWOOD: It is the main Practice Direction 54. I am not sure if it is 54A or not.
JUDGE BEHRENS: 54A is…I see. (Reads) Shall I go and get my White Book? (Pause) I have not found it. I can pass you this. Can you be very kind and pass me the 2009 one. (Pause).
MR HARWOOD: It is in respect of rule 54.10.
JUDGE BEHRENS: Are you looking the rule or the Practice Direction.
MR HARWOOD: It is Practice Direction 54 A, it is in the same volume at page 1705.
JUDGE BEHRENS: I see. This is last year's.
MR HARWOOD: I will pass it --.
JUDGE BEHRENS: It is under 54.10, is it?
MR HARWOOD: It is a Practice Direction where it deals with 54.10. I will just pass it up. It's paragraph 8.6 there.
JUDGE BEHRENS: Right. "Where a defendant or any party does attend a hearing, the court will not generally make an order for costs against the claimant."
MR HARWOOD: Yes, my Lord, that is the answer on the hearing point.
JUDGE BEHRENS: Yes.
MR HARWOOD: That's the answer on the hearing point. But what has prompted cases like Ewing is the fact does not say anything about acknowledgment of service costs.
JUDGE BEHRENS: At least I now know why they conceded yesterday –
MR HARWOOD: (Inaudible).
JUDGE BEHRENS: Yes.
MR HARWOOD: So that is the answer to the question of hearing. But in terms of the question of the Acknowledgment of Service there are simply no requests made by the Environment Agency at the time that applied at the time and (inaudible) they then have avenue of appeal, but what is happening here is on a renewal hearing where the Practice Direction does give costs protection effectively to a unsuccessful claimant in the renewal hearing the claimant is being threatened with quite significant sums of costs incurred by the agency at an earlier stage in the proceedings which they had not sought at that time. So the first point, my Lord, is that the agency are too late to apply for the costs of the acknowledgment of service in the grounds first as a matter of general principle and secondly, a point made absolutely clear by Ewing.
JUDGE BEHRENS: Ewing as well as this one.
MR HARWOOD: That case of Ewing.
JUDGE BEHRENS: This is Ewing.
MR HARWOOD: The second point is…
JUDGE BEHRENS: Mr Ewing is obviously one of these gentlemen who has had a number of cases.
MR HARWOOD: He is a vexatious litigant officially. The first point is the agency. The second point follows from what was also said in Ewing is that the agency did vastly more work than is proper for acknowledgment of service. In Ewing at paragraph 44 Carnwath LJ draws a distinction between detailed grounds and summary grounds and pointed out at paragraph 44 (inaudible) two and a half pages. The point has been reinforced by the Court of Appeal in a number of decisions including by the then Master of Rolls, Sir Anthony Clarke in a case called Davey (inaudible).
JUDGE BEHRENS: Couldn't read them.
MR HARWOOD: Yes. What (inaudible) put in 19 pages of summary grounds in a situation where the grounds being advanced in the case were the grounds which were in the pre-action letter which the agency had responded to in the pre-action letter and there is, I entirely understand why someone trying to knock out proceedings would throw in everything that they can get away with it but that does not entitle them to the costs. Those are not remotely summary grounds.
JUDGE BEHRENS: £213 pounds an hour is a bit high, is it not?
MR HARWOOD: It is given that whilst in-house lawyers are able to charge on a profits basis the indemnity principle still applies --
JUDGE BEHRENS: I am just thinking, it is higher the going rate. Aren't the Environmental Agency based in Bristol?
MR HARWOOD: Yes
JUDGE BEHRENS: Leeds rates, I think it may now be £213 but they did not go up until Lord Neuberger put them up in April 1st of this year and the acknowledgment of service was a bit before that.
MR HARWOOD The higher rates are there.
JUDGE BEHRENS: But even so you would say….the rate is a very small part of this case.
MR HARWOOD: A great deal of time, some hours of solicitor time and what would appear to be almost 23 hours --
JUDGE BEHRENS: We have £2,000 of Mr Facenna's time.
MR HARWOOD: Yes and the Agency pay Treasury Panel rates which are (inaudible).
JUDGE BEHRENS: That is no doubt why it comes to £2, 279.98.
MR HARWOOD: As a mathematical exercise where the pennies are.
JUDGE BEHRENS: Every minute.
MR FACENNA: (Inaudible)
JUDGE BEHRENS: Every minute has been accounted for.
MR HARWOOD: So my Lord, to bring the minutes to a halt, let alone the hours to a halt. Firstly, the agency shouldn't have (inaudible) the application. Secondly, they have gone wildly beyond what has properly summary grounds of response particularly given the pre-action protocol covered all the grounds which have been raised and so if any sum was to be awarded it should really be summarily assessed at very modest sums of well under £1,000. My Lord, those are my submissions
MR FACENNA: My Lord can you pick up Ewing again and refer to paragraph 20 in that judgment which is the summary of has actually said in Mount Cook, and particularly you will see the indented paragraph.
JUDGE BEHRENS: I am in trouble. I have the same problem. It's on the back of 29.
MR FACENNA: Yes. The indented paragraph is the quotation from Lord Justice Auld's judgment in Mount Cook which summarise the decision: "The effect of Leach, certainly in a case to which the pre-action protocol applied and where a defendant or other interested party had complied with it, was that a successful defendant or other party at the permission stage who had filed an acknowledgment of service pursuant to rule 54.8 should generally recover the costs of doing so from the claimant whether or not he attended any permission hearing." Now the point Mr Harwood has put to you is nothing to the point. I said at the outset (inaudible). What we are talking about are the costs which Auld LJ says we are generally entitled to recover, having complied with the acknowledgement of service.
JUDGE BEHRENS: What happens if you file your acknowledgement of service and it does not claim costs and there is no application to renew?
MR FACENNA: I can explain the position in relation to that. Invariably for (inaudible) defendants there will be a paragraph at the end of the summary guidance in accordance with Mount Cook (inaudible) service. The reason it was not in this case is because the claimant did not (inaudible) at the time it was made (inaudible) acknowledgment of service. So we would not have recovered the cost.
Yes, you would. You would have got an order for costs subject to whatever that law is.
MR FACENNA: Yes, but in practice it would never be recovered.
JUDGE BEHRENS: The Treasury Solicitor applies to me every time.
MR FACENNA: And the practice that money is never recovered.
JUDGE BEHRENS: I know the money is never recovered.
MR FACENNA: In the circumstances given that he was a legally aided claimant--
JUDGE BEHRENS: It is the same point, is it not? If at the time you put your acknowledgment of service in he was legally aided he is entitled to (inaudible).
MR FACENNA: Well (inaudible) subsequently.
JUDGE BEHRENS: Was it revoked?
MR FACENNA: It was revoked, precisely. Which is in we are in a position where I can hand up some of the correspondence because frankly the suggestion that this is sort of ambush having turned up at the permission hearing or that it is way out of proportion is a ludicrous one when one looks at the correspondence. Because there is months of correspondence where they were told what our costs were and that we wouldn't (inaudible) £5,900 in the sum (inaudible), so we did not claim costs because he was legally aided, the certificate was revoked and we know there is £67,000 sitting in a the bank account which HOTI have raised because they must have been made aware at the time that there would be a risk of bringing this challenge. We did respond to the pre-action protocol and frankly at that point those advising (inaudible) should have taken the opportunity to reconsider the application for permission. They pressed on with all of the grounds. They have pressed on again since the refusal for permission and in the circumstances it is not right that the public purse should have to bear the cost of responding to this case when the Court of Appeal has made it clear that public authority defendants are entitled to recover the cost of acknowledgement of service. As to the amount, £213 is the current amount for a solicitor of that standing. Your Lordships has made a fair point which is that current value so some of that amount would have been incurred beforehand.
JUDGE BEHRENS: When did you do the acknowledgment of service?
MR FACENNA: It was…
JUDGE BEHRENS: We're probably only talking about £10 an hour. I think he is a Grade A solicitor. I am assuming Bristol is the same as Leeds which I expected it will be.
MR FACENNA: Yes. The figure comes from the court's website.
JUDGE BEHRENS: Yes, it is in the White Book.
MR FACENNA: The summary grounds were lodged on October 2009 so --.
JUDGE BEHRENS: About £201.
MR FACENNA: That might be right. The Treasury rate I was being paid at the time was £80 an hour. There are a lot of hours that have gone into this case. It has taken us a whole day to argue it. It is not a case where we could pitch up with some short response to the (inaudible). I was in the same position as your Lordship in that I certainly had never known anything about the POPS regulation before this came on. It is a rather technical area. It did require quite a lot of work to put in to prepare the response in order to be fully up to date and in my submission it is (inaudible) accordance with the principles laid out in Mount Cook entitle to recover the costs particularly when we know the claimant has access to the money (inaudible).
JUDGE BEHRENS: Thank you.
MR FACENNA: There is one further point which is, although there is no provision for this in CPR 54 after we put in our acknowledgement of service the claimant put in a further set of observations which were two points, which we were then had respond to so in fact as a result of them having two bites at the cherry our costs went up because we had to put in a further document prior to –
JUDGE BEHRENS: What was the date when Legal Aid was revoked?
MR FACENNA: HOTI told us about it at least on beginning of February I think.
JUDGE BEHRENS: What was the date when an application for renewal was made?
MR FACENNA: It was after that.
JUDGE BEHRENS: After that.
MR FACENNA: Yes. At the permission stage.
JUDGE BEHRENS: I used to know it. I have got it on my little chronology here? 19th January was refusal. In theory the renewal and I expect in practice should be within seven days of 19 January because that is what the form says.
MR FACENNA: Acknowledgment of renewal was made on 28 January.
JUDGE BEHRENS: That probably was exactly because it would have taken a few days to go. I see, so at the time when you learnt that the Legal Aid had been revoked there was already an application to renew and the correspondence then started, did it?
MR FACENNA: Yes my Lord. We were sent a letter or the agency was sent a letter (inaudible) February.
JUDGE BEHRENS: Thank you.
MR FACENNA: Saying he has had certificate revoked.
JUDGE BEHRENS: Thank you.
MR FACENNA: That was when discussions began on (inaudible) costs.
JUDGE BEHRENS: Thank you very much. (Pause) Anything anybody wants to say? (Pause) No, thank you very much.
There is now before me an application for costs by and only by the defendant because there is a protected costs order under which it had been agreed between the claimant and all the interested parties that they will not make any application for cost either way and therefore in accordance with that nobody has sought to go behind that.
So far as the Environment Agency is concerned the application is for the costs only in respect of the acknowledgment of service, which total of £5,936.68 is claimed. Two points are taken. One, as a matter of principle, so far as the principle is concerned I have very helpfully been referred as the Mount Cook decision where Auld LJ indicated that the normal position is that a successful defendant who files an acknowledgment of service in judicial review proceedings should generally recover the costs of doing from the claimant whether or not he attends any permission hearing. And I have also been referred to the Practice Direction on judicial review, Practice Direction A, which makes it clear that the normal rule also is that the costs of' attending the renewal hearing by a successful defendant are normally not recoverable.
In Ewing v Office of the Deputy Prime Minister, Lord Justice Carnwath gave further guidance, not as to the general principle, but as to the level of costs, making it clear that the decision must not be applied in a way that seriously impedes the right of citizens' access to justice, particularly when seeking to protect their environment, and he also draws attention to the amount of material that needs to go into a summary of grounds, particularly where the pre-action protocol has been complied with. And so far as the points of principle are concerned, it is accepted that if an application had been made in the acknowledgement of service in the normal way, an order for costs might have been made. But no application was made in the acknowledgment of service because at that time the claimant, Mr Yates Taylor, had the benefit of Legal Aid and as a result an order for costs would only have been enforceable after an assessment of Mr Yates Taylor's means, which in practice might well have meant that no order for costs would have been recoverable. In those circumstances the Environmental Agency decided at that stage not to put in application for costs.
At a time after the decision of Sir Michael Harrison and after an application had been made to renew, the Environment Agency were informed that Legal Aid had been revoked and immediately started correspondence about its costs. In those circumstances it is said that even though no application was made at the time there is no reason why I should not make an order for the cost of the Acknowledgment of Service. It seems to me given that the Legal Aid has been revoked that in principle there is no reason why Mr Yates Taylor should not pay the costs of Acknowledgement of Service in accordance with Mount Cook.
The next question therefore is the amount of costs. I accept that this case is out of the ordinary but I still think the sum of £5, 936.68 is on the high side. A fairly minor point is that the rate charged is too high, being the current Grade A rate. It is very difficult for me to assess cost. I am conscious of the fact that in a lot of judicial review cases I have to deal with, some of which seem to me to raise quite complicated points, the Treasury Solicitor puts in a bill at under £1,000 usually between £500 and £800 for preparing the acknowledgement of service. Of course it is right that some of the issues in this case were novel and new. It is equally right to say that insofar as time was spent on the Ground 4 point, that is a point substantially dealt with by the Secretary of State and not the Environmental Agency. It is difficult for me. I propose to reduce the sum of £5,936 and to award a round figure of £2,500 in relation to the filing of the Acknowledgement. I am conscious HOTI may well have raised more, but that does not seem to me to affect the position. I do think that the costs are on the high side. That is all, I hope.
MR HARWOOD: Yes.
JUDGE BEHRENS: You can't get permission to appeal from me. You have to go to the Court of Appeal.
MR HARWOOD: Yes.
JUDGE BEHRENS: To take the matter any further. I learnt that a week ago too. It is all very interesting this area of law. Thank you very much.